RFD: uk.radio.amateur (remove)

[Clive White]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur



*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.radio.amateur

The newsgroup uk.radio.amateur should be removed from the hierarchy as
it has irretrievably descended into a group where trolling, flames and
personal attacks make up the vast majority (regularly to the point of
100%) of posted content. The trolling and attacks routinely spill over
from uk.radio.amateur into other newsgroups in the UK hierarchy and
Big 8, ruining innocent bystanders enjoyment of usenet. There is no
realistic expectation that the trolls' behaviour will change. The
group has been this way for many years already. The impact on the UK
hierarchy management newsgroups has been particularly bad with them
often rendered unusable for days or weeks at a time. This is arguably
a direct threat to the credibility and future of the hierarchy.

There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated. Any users of uk.radio.amateur who wish to
discuss amateur radio on UK are able to do so there. There are also
many other unmoderated amateur radio newsgroups in other hierarchies,
including free.uk.amateur-radio. Removing uk.radio.amateur from UK
will not deprive anybody of the opportunity to discuss amateur radio
on Usenet but it will deprive the trolls of their long-term base. It
will also remove a direct threat and nuisance to UK and its users.



CHARTER:
uk.radio.amateur

This group is intended to provide a forum for discussion of amateur
radio in the UK.

END CHARTER

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until January 22nd) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method. Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce
and is available from http://www.usenet.org.uk/guidelines.html (the UK
Usenet website). Please refer to this document if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.config
uk.radio.amateur

Proponent:
Clive White <***@gmail.com>

[Clive George]

Post by Clive White
The newsgroup uk.radio.amateur should be removed from the hierarchy as
it has irretrievably descended into a group where trolling, flames and
personal attacks make up the vast majority (regularly to the point of
100%) of posted content.

Faites vos jeux...

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

WhoTF is clive white ????

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

Who TF is clive white????

[Butt-hurt-Burt]

Post by Jim GM4DHJ ...
Who TF is clive white????

Who is Mr Evans?

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.
RATIONALE: uk.radio.amateur
The newsgroup uk.radio.amateur should be removed from the hierarchy as
it has irretrievably descended into a group where trolling, flames and
personal attacks make up the vast majority (regularly to the point of
100%) of posted content. The trolling and attacks routinely spill over
from uk.radio.amateur into other newsgroups in the UK hierarchy and
Big 8, ruining innocent bystanders enjoyment of usenet. There is no
realistic expectation that the trolls' behaviour will change. The
group has been this way for many years already. The impact on the UK
hierarchy management newsgroups has been particularly bad with them
often rendered unusable for days or weeks at a time. This is arguably
a direct threat to the credibility and future of the hierarchy.

Good points, well made. ukra has gone to the dogs, it's been a cesspit for
well over a decade but it's totally fucked now and is, quite objectively,
irredeemable.

Post by Clive White
There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated. Any users of uk.radio.amateur who wish to
discuss amateur radio on UK are able to do so there. There are also
many other unmoderated amateur radio newsgroups in other hierarchies,
including free.uk.amateur-radio. Removing uk.radio.amateur from UK
will not deprive anybody of the opportunity to discuss amateur radio
on Usenet but it will deprive the trolls of their long-term base. It
will also remove a direct threat and nuisance to UK and its users.

ukram is an excellent alternative venue for amateur radio discussion.
Civil, friendly, educational, on-topic; it's everything ukra ain't. The
hierarchy doesn't need two amateur radio groups, and it doesn't need a rats
nest of trolls and deranged perverts. Kill it dead, I say.

[Bi Song]

Stephen Thomas Cole stirred electrons into action to say ...

The hierarchy doesn't need two amateur radio groups

Then why did you, and others, push for a 2nd uk.* group in the first
place?

Don't bother spouting the crap again about it being a cesspit you wanted
to get out of: out of the last 1000 posts, 265 came from you, Brian
Reay, Ian (radio) Jackson and Mike Tomlinson - the four who foamed at
the mouth the most when the first vote didn't go your way.

and it doesn't need a rats nest of trolls

You and Reay accounted for 24.9% of the last thousand articles...

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Bi Song

and it doesn't need a rats nest of trolls

You and Reay accounted for 24.9% of the last thousand articles...

But, according to Cole and Reay, they aren't the trolls...

(sic)

[Spike]

Post by Bi Song
Stephen Thomas Cole stirred electrons into action to say ...

The hierarchy doesn't need two amateur radio groups

Then why did you, and others, push for a 2nd uk.* group in the first
place?
Don't bother spouting the crap again about it being a cesspit you wanted
to get out of: out of the last 1000 posts, 265 came from you, Brian
Reay, Ian (radio) Jackson and Mike Tomlinson - the four who foamed at
the mouth the most when the first vote didn't go your way.

The emotional types always lose control of themselves under pressure.

The problem de jour, one might think, is that UKRA didn't fold up when
the paradise of the moderated group was finally created. There were
enough people who said they wouldn't use the new group, to keep UKRA on
its feet. Unfortunately this meant, as your data shows, that some were
then forced to carry on in the way they'd grown accustomed to,
supporting their own self-fulfilling prophecies. Hence the appalling
figures you mention above.

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Spike

Post by Bi Song
Stephen Thomas Cole stirred electrons into action to say ...

The hierarchy doesn't need two amateur radio groups

Then why did you, and others, push for a 2nd uk.* group in the first
place?
Don't bother spouting the crap again about it being a cesspit you wanted
to get out of: out of the last 1000 posts, 265 came from you, Brian
Reay, Ian (radio) Jackson and Mike Tomlinson - the four who foamed at
the mouth the most when the first vote didn't go your way.

The emotional types always lose control of themselves under pressure.
The problem de jour, one might think, is that UKRA didn't fold up when
the paradise of the moderated group was finally created. There were
enough people who said they wouldn't use the new group, to keep UKRA on
its feet.

IIRC, very few said that they wouldn't use UKRAM if it was created.

Similarly, very few said that if UKRAM was created, they would no longer
use UKRA.

Post by Spike
Unfortunately this meant, as your data shows, that some were then
forced to carry on in the way they'd grown accustomed to, supporting
their own self-fulfilling prophecies. Hence the appalling figures you
mention above.

I simply can't understand the purpose of the ongoing and never-ending
battle that goes on in (and wrecks) UKRA - and especially the eternal
pub brawl that keeps spewing out onto the street, and into other
newsgroups. Hopefully, innocent bystanders won't see this a genuine
facet of amateur radio.

[Spike]

Post by Ian Jackson
I simply can't understand the purpose of the ongoing and never-ending
battle that goes on in (and wrecks) UKRA - and especially the eternal
pub brawl that keeps spewing out onto the street, and into other
newsgroups. Hopefully, innocent bystanders won't see this a genuine
facet of amateur radio.

Battle?

It's really the Class A types altruistically trying to educate the
wannabe Class B types and the awful NuHams, when the latter two groups
manifestly don't want to learn anything. It's a bit like some whinger on
the dole living only five minutes walk away from millionaires and doing
nothing to improve their lot despite being shown the way.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Spike

Post by Ian Jackson
I simply can't understand the purpose of the ongoing and never-ending
battle that goes on in (and wrecks) UKRA - and especially the eternal
pub brawl that keeps spewing out onto the street, and into other
newsgroups. Hopefully, innocent bystanders won't see this a genuine
facet of amateur radio.

Battle?
It's really the Class A types altruistically trying to educate the
wannabe Class B types and the awful NuHams, when the latter two groups
manifestly don't want to learn anything. It's a bit like some whinger on
the dole living only five minutes walk away from millionaires and doing
nothing to improve their lot despite being shown the way.

Your mask is slipping there, Burt, again.

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Ian Jackson
I simply can't understand the purpose of the ongoing and
never-ending battle that goes on in (and wrecks) UKRA - and
especially the eternal pub brawl that keeps spewing out onto the
street, and into other newsgroups.

You'd best ask the 24.9% of the posters, the scum of West Kent.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Spike

Post by Bi Song
Stephen Thomas Cole stirred electrons into action to say ...

The hierarchy doesn't need two amateur radio groups

Then why did you, and others, push for a 2nd uk.* group in the first
place?
Don't bother spouting the crap again about it being a cesspit you wanted
to get out of: out of the last 1000 posts, 265 came from you, Brian
Reay, Ian (radio) Jackson and Mike Tomlinson - the four who foamed at
the mouth the most when the first vote didn't go your way.

The emotional types always lose control of themselves under pressure.
The problem de jour, one might think, is that UKRA didn't fold up when
the paradise of the moderated group was finally created. There were
enough people who said they wouldn't use the new group, to keep UKRA on
its feet.

IIRC, very few said that they wouldn't use UKRAM if it was created.
Similarly, very few said that if UKRAM was created, they would no longer
use UKRA.

I think precisely zero people said that, in fact.

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Spike
Unfortunately this meant, as your data shows, that some were then
forced to carry on in the way they'd grown accustomed to, supporting
their own self-fulfilling prophecies. Hence the appalling figures you
mention above.

I simply can't understand the purpose of the ongoing and never-ending
battle that goes on in (and wrecks) UKRA - and especially the eternal
pub brawl that keeps spewing out onto the street, and into other
newsgroups. Hopefully, innocent bystanders won't see this a genuine
facet of amateur radio.

Only if they haven't actually met some radio amateurs in the flesh...

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Bi Song
Stephen Thomas Cole stirred electrons into action to say ...

The hierarchy doesn't need two amateur radio groups

Then why did you, and others, push for a 2nd uk.* group in the first
place?

I can't speak for others, but I was pushing for the 1st uk.* amateur radio
group that would be free of endless trolling.

Post by Bi Song
Don't bother spouting the crap again about it being a cesspit you wanted
to get out of: out of the last 1000 posts, 265 came from you, Brian
Reay, Ian (radio) Jackson and Mike Tomlinson - the four who foamed at
the mouth the most when the first vote didn't go your way.

So 735[1] of the last 1000 posts came from Burt's syphilitic mob.
Interesting. Thanks, Pedt!

[1] Minus a few dozen blog posts.

Post by Bi Song

and it doesn't need a rats nest of trolls

You and Reay accounted for 24.9% of the last thousand articles...

You seem to be labouring under some kind of notion that posting messages to
a discussion forum is in some way peculiar.

[Jerry Stuckle]

Post by Clive White
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.
RATIONALE: uk.radio.amateur
The newsgroup uk.radio.amateur should be removed from the hierarchy as
it has irretrievably descended into a group where trolling, flames and
personal attacks make up the vast majority (regularly to the point of
100%) of posted content. The trolling and attacks routinely spill over
from uk.radio.amateur into other newsgroups in the UK hierarchy and
Big 8, ruining innocent bystanders enjoyment of usenet. There is no
realistic expectation that the trolls' behaviour will change. The
group has been this way for many years already. The impact on the UK
hierarchy management newsgroups has been particularly bad with them
often rendered unusable for days or weeks at a time. This is arguably
a direct threat to the credibility and future of the hierarchy.
There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated. Any users of uk.radio.amateur who wish to
discuss amateur radio on UK are able to do so there. There are also
many other unmoderated amateur radio newsgroups in other hierarchies,
including free.uk.amateur-radio. Removing uk.radio.amateur from UK
will not deprive anybody of the opportunity to discuss amateur radio
on Usenet but it will deprive the trolls of their long-term base. It
will also remove a direct threat and nuisance to UK and its users.
uk.radio.amateur
This group is intended to provide a forum for discussion of amateur
radio in the UK.
END CHARTER
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until January 22nd) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method. Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce
and is available from http://www.usenet.org.uk/guidelines.html (the UK
Usenet website). Please refer to this document if you have any questions
about the process.
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.config
uk.radio.amateur

I disagree. It serves a purpose - it is a place for the trolls and
other scum to spew their hatred. No one has to subscribe to that group,
and by it being there the garbage-mongers won't bother other groups - at
least not as much.

I don't follow it any more, and haven't for several years. But that's
my choice. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I think it should
be shut down.

[Paul Cummins]

In article

Post by Clive White
There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated.

And it's dead, jim.

when UKRAM was proposed, the argument made by the supporters was "build
it and they will come" - but they never did. And the Supporters also said
that UKRAM was not to replace UKRA.

UKRA is a considerably more active group than UKRAM. I agree it's a pity
that the trolls, like STC and Reay, are still using the place as their
own personal cesspool, but they can be killfiled easily enough.

[Butt-hurt-Burt]

Post by Paul Cummins
In article
<rfd1-uk.radio.amateur.rmgrp-white-20170111201401

Post by Clive White
There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated.

And it's dead, jim.
when UKRAM was proposed, the argument made by the supporters was "build
it and they will come" - but they never did. And the Supporters also
said that UKRAM was not to replace UKRA.
UKRA is a considerably more active group than UKRAM. I agree it's a pity
that the trolls, like STC and Reay, are still using the place as their
own personal cesspool, but they can be killfiled easily enough.

--

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Paul Cummins
In article

Post by Clive White
There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated.

And it's dead, jim.

Burt spent the whole last year posting Weakly Reports that prove it is
anything but dead.

[Brian Reay]

Post by Paul Cummins
In article

Post by Clive White
There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated.

And it's dead, jim.
when UKRAM was proposed, the argument made by the supporters was "build
it and they will come" - but they never did. And the Supporters also said
that UKRAM was not to replace UKRA.

UKRAM is active.

UKRAM won't replace ukra, unless the moderators continue to let
standards slip. If ukra is removed, that isn't the same was ukram
replacing it.

Post by Paul Cummins
UKRA is a considerably more active group than UKRAM. I agree it's a pity
that the trolls, like STC and Reay, are still using the place as their
own personal cesspool, but they can be killfiled easily enough.

UKRA is full of abuse etc, much of it from you and your chums. It
certainly isn't an amateur radio group. Removing it would remove the
focal point for several ring leaders of the abuse, including you.

[Paul Cummins]

UKRA is full of abuse etc, much of it from me and my chums.

IFYPFY

[Brian Reay]

Post by Paul Cummins

UKRA is full of abuse etc, much of it from me and my chums.

IFYPFY

Well done, you've demonstrated why ukram was needed and you are barred
from other civilised groups.

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Brian Reay
Well done, you've demonstrated why ukram was needed and you are
barred from other civilised groups.

Could you detail these "civilised groups" I am allegedly barred from?

[Chronos]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 20:14:01 +0000

The trolling and attacks routinely spill over from uk.radio.amateur
into other newsgroups in the UK hierarchy

Just no. Quite apart from the aversion to removing active groups, the
removal of such a group would exacerbate the very overspill you are
concerned about. In fact, this RFD is assured to do just that.

[Brian Morrison]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 21:53:43 +0000

Post by Chronos
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 20:14:01 +0000

The trolling and attacks routinely spill over from uk.radio.amateur
into other newsgroups in the UK hierarchy

Just no. Quite apart from the aversion to removing active groups, the
removal of such a group would exacerbate the very overspill you are
concerned about. In fact, this RFD is assured to do just that.

Entirely agree with you Matt, it's caused by a relatively small cadre of
people who seem entirely unable to regulate their own impulses.

When the time comes I will most certainly be voting against this
proposal.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Chronos
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 20:14:01 +0000

The trolling and attacks routinely spill over from uk.radio.amateur
into other newsgroups in the UK hierarchy

Just no. Quite apart from the aversion to removing active groups,

It's been done at least a couple of times for problem groups, the bullying
group and a .local group, IIRC. And ukra is certainly a problem group.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

This is a well-used group. There are really only three posters who
regularly initiate abuse, and two of those are mentally deranged.
There is a lot of desultory conversation, often about amateur radio more
or less, until it is derailed by insults from one of the above trolls.

Most importantly, if the group were closed down (in an absurd act of
pique by the uk.* electorate) most of the posters would continue to
contribute, and perhaps in a more aggrieved way, to other groups, so it
wouldn't even have the effect the proposer professes to desire.

It is also important to realise that there are two or three people who
have had their dignity damaged by their experiences in ukra and want to
close the group down for petty revenge.

Chief among these is the uk.* hierarchy's old friend, Stephen Thomas
Cole.

[Butt-hurt-Burt]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

This is a well-used group. There are really only three posters who
regularly initiate abuse, and two of those are mentally deranged.
There is a lot of desultory conversation, often about amateur radio more
or less, until it is derailed by insults from one of the above trolls.
Most importantly, if the group were closed down (in an absurd act of
pique by the uk.* electorate) most of the posters would continue to
contribute, and perhaps in a more aggrieved way, to other groups, so it
wouldn't even have the effect the proposer professes to desire.
It is also important to realise that there are two or three people who
have had their dignity damaged by their experiences in ukra and want to
close the group down for petty revenge.
Chief among these is the uk.* hierarchy's old friend, Stephen Thomas
Cole.

Nice burn!

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

This is a well-used group.

By trolls.

Post by Roger Hayter
There are really only three posters who
regularly initiate abuse, and two of those are mentally deranged.

Who are you saying is "mentally deranged" and what evidence do you have for
that?

Post by Roger Hayter
There is a lot of desultory conversation, often about amateur radio more
or less, until it is derailed by insults from one of the above trolls.
Most importantly, if the group were closed down (in an absurd act of
pique by the uk.* electorate) most of the posters would continue to
contribute, and perhaps in a more aggrieved way, to other groups, so it
wouldn't even have the effect the proposer professes to desire.

It makes sense, though, to nuke the hive. Good posters will mostly shift to
ukram, others may go to rec.radio.*, Burt's already been posting to fuar
for the last year or so. It'll scatter the toe rags to the winds and the
problem will blow away.

Post by Roger Hayter
It is also important to realise that there are two or three people who
have had their dignity damaged by their experiences in ukra and want to
close the group down for petty revenge.
Chief among these is the uk.* hierarchy's old friend, Stephen Thomas
Cole.

Why the personal attack there, Roger? Not very moderate of you. Maybe
you've spent too much time in ukra and this kind of behaviour has been
normalised for you. Seek help.

[Roger Hayter]

snip

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter
It is also important to realise that there are two or three people who
have had their dignity damaged by their experiences in ukra and want to
close the group down for petty revenge.
Chief among these is the uk.* hierarchy's old friend, Stephen Thomas
Cole.

Why the personal attack there, Roger? Not very moderate of you. Maybe
you've spent too much time in ukra and this kind of behaviour has been
normalised for you. Seek help.

Not an attack at all. Just incontrovertible, documented truth. I'm
just trying to be helpful.

[Brian Reay]

Post by Roger Hayter
snip

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter
It is also important to realise that there are two or three people who
have had their dignity damaged by their experiences in ukra and want to
close the group down for petty revenge.
Chief among these is the uk.* hierarchy's old friend, Stephen Thomas
Cole.

Why the personal attack there, Roger? Not very moderate of you. Maybe
you've spent too much time in ukra and this kind of behaviour has been
normalised for you. Seek help.

Not an attack at all. Just incontrovertible, documented truth. I'm
just trying to be helpful.

I'm not aware of Clive having ever posted to ukra. Still, you aren't one
to let truth influence your comments.


Your ally Cummins does get a bad time due to his behaviour and has
previously tried to close the group down. He certainly has an
'unpleasant' record for taking revenge, rather like you.

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Brian Reay
He certainly has an
'unpleasant' record for taking revenge, rather like you.

Do you have an example of same? Or is this just another of your vapour
claims?

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Roger Hayter
snip

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter
It is also important to realise that there are two or three people who
have had their dignity damaged by their experiences in ukra and want to
close the group down for petty revenge.
Chief among these is the uk.* hierarchy's old friend, Stephen Thomas
Cole.

Why the personal attack there, Roger? Not very moderate of you. Maybe
you've spent too much time in ukra and this kind of behaviour has been
normalised for you. Seek help.

Not an attack at all. Just incontrovertible, documented truth. I'm
just trying to be helpful.

When has it been "documented" that I want to "close the group down", Roger?
Please supply your evidence. The uncomfortable (for you) truth is that I've
argued against deletion multiple times previously. I will accept your
apologies.

This time, though, all things considered, I'm broadly in favour. Please
don't launch another immoderate personal attack at me because of it.

[Spike]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

This is a well-used group. There are really only three posters who
regularly initiate abuse, and two of those are mentally deranged.
There is a lot of desultory conversation, often about amateur radio more
or less, until it is derailed by insults from one of the above trolls.
Most importantly, if the group were closed down (in an absurd act of
pique by the uk.* electorate) most of the posters would continue to
contribute, and perhaps in a more aggrieved way, to other groups, so it
wouldn't even have the effect the proposer professes to desire.
It is also important to realise that there are two or three people who
have had their dignity damaged by their experiences in ukra and want to
close the group down for petty revenge.
Chief among these is the uk.* hierarchy's old friend, Stephen Thomas
Cole.

It's interesting to note that the only way that Stephen Thomas "Prole"
Cole can successfully be associated with group creation or removal, is
not to be associated with it. I suspect he's exacting revenge over being
suckered into trashing his own RFDs. How that must rankle.

The last figures I posted revealed this about UKRAM:

Posts: *Down* by 84%

Posters: *Down* by 59%

New Threads: *Down* by 86%

The people who have moved to UKRAM won't be followed by any more. The
social-media spamming never helped boost numbers in spite of all the
hype and over-blown claims.

So the question is: how is this RFD supposed to deal with falling numbers?

Over to free.uk.amateur-radio, chaps - it's already been filled with
Schmuckblogs so can't get any worse, but they and any sociopaths that
turn up are easily KFd.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Spike

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

This is a well-used group. There are really only three posters who
regularly initiate abuse, and two of those are mentally deranged.
There is a lot of desultory conversation, often about amateur radio more
or less, until it is derailed by insults from one of the above trolls.
Most importantly, if the group were closed down (in an absurd act of
pique by the uk.* electorate) most of the posters would continue to
contribute, and perhaps in a more aggrieved way, to other groups, so it
wouldn't even have the effect the proposer professes to desire.
It is also important to realise that there are two or three people who
have had their dignity damaged by their experiences in ukra and want to
close the group down for petty revenge.
Chief among these is the uk.* hierarchy's old friend, Stephen Thomas
Cole.

It's interesting to note that the only way that Stephen Thomas "Prole"
Cole can successfully be associated with group creation or removal, is
not to be associated with it. I suspect he's exacting revenge over being
suckered into trashing his own RFDs. How that must rankle.
Posts: *Down* by 84%
Posters: *Down* by 59%
New Threads: *Down* by 86%
The people who have moved to UKRAM won't be followed by any more. The
social-media spamming never helped boost numbers in spite of all the
hype and over-blown claims.
So the question is: how is this RFD supposed to deal with falling numbers?

Burt, you haven't done your promised stats for Dec-Jan. Will we see those
soon, OM? It's been a busy month in ukram, so I suspect not...

Post by Spike
Over to free.uk.amateur-radio, chaps - it's already been filled with
Schmuckblogs so can't get any worse, but they and any sociopaths that
turn up are easily KFd.

fuar confirmed as viable alternative by another current user of ukra, so
clearly no case whatsoever to argue that nixing ukra deprives anybody of
anything.

[Butt-hurt-Burt]

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Spike
Over to free.uk.amateur-radio, chaps - it's already been filled with
Schmuckblogs so can't get any worse, but they and any sociopaths that
turn up are easily KFd.

fuar confirmed as viable alternative by another current user of ukra, so
clearly no case whatsoever to argue that nixing ukra deprives anybody of
anything.

Get a Giganews account and continue to use ukra.

[Brian Howie]

In message

Post by Clive White
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

I'll put it on record that I oppose deletion. Ukra is capable of hosting
mostly on-topic robust and informative discussion unfettered by the
shackles of moderation. The odd bit of persiflage and totally off-topic
stuff of interest is neither here nor there.

In an odd way ukra and uram complement each other.

Brian

[Brian Howie]

Post by Brian Howie
In message

Post by Clive White
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

I'll put it on record that I oppose deletion. Ukra is capable of
hosting mostly on-topic robust and informative discussion unfettered by
the shackles of moderation. The odd bit of persiflage and totally
off-topic stuff of interest is neither here nor there.
In an odd way ukra and uram complement each other.
Brian

Having said that ,the big problem I agree as Clive states is the fallout
into the other groups. Removal of ukra will probably make this worse.
One big problem I've noticed is cross-posting to and from other
irrelevant groups.

Is it possible to alter the configuration of ukra so that crossposting
to and from the group is disabled ?

Brian

[Chronos]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:23:19 +0000

Post by Brian Howie
Is it possible to alter the configuration of ukra so that
crossposting to and from the group is disabled ?

No, but an amended/further RFD, once the timeout on this elapses, to
change the charter to make this contrary to the T&Cs of such Usenet
providers who enforce group charters is possible.

[Brian Howie]

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:23:19 +0000

Post by Brian Howie
Is it possible to alter the configuration of ukra so that
crossposting to and from the group is disabled ?

No, but an amended/further RFD, once the timeout on this elapses, to
change the charter to make this contrary to the T&Cs of such Usenet
providers who enforce group charters is possible.

The other way is to route it through chiark ( or similar) as a
quasi-moderated group with a *.* white list and keep a no-crosspost
rule.

I'm way out my depth here, however I do know it's possible to change an
open newsgroup to a moderated one.

Http://tokak.us/big8/articles/m/o/d/Moderated_Newsgroups.html

Brian

[Ian Jackson]

Post by Brian Howie
The other way is to route it through chiark ( or similar) as a
quasi-moderated group with a *.* white list and keep a no-crosspost
rule.

That would be technically feasible but I think it would be a bad idea.

Post by Brian Howie
I'm way out my depth here, however I do know it's possible to change an
open newsgroup to a moderated one.

It's a bit tricky, because posters whose news servers don't update
their group status end up having their posts vanish into a void (well,
a kind of maybe-collective void, where they may see some posts by
other similarly afflicted posters).

[Mark Goodge]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by Brian Howie
The other way is to route it through chiark ( or similar) as a
quasi-moderated group with a *.* white list and keep a no-crosspost
rule.

That would be technically feasible but I think it would be a bad idea.

Post by Brian Howie
I'm way out my depth here, however I do know it's possible to change an
open newsgroup to a moderated one.

It's a bit tricky, because posters whose news servers don't update
their group status end up having their posts vanish into a void (well,
a kind of maybe-collective void, where they may see some posts by
other similarly afflicted posters).

Moderation-in-place, although possible, is frowned upon for exactly
that reason. There are a lot of news serves which will automatically
add new groups, and correctly apply the moderated flag to them if
present, but won't automatically delete or alter existing ones.

The last time it was done in uk.* was uk.religion.christian, which was
converted to moderated in 1996. It was several years before the number
of non-compliant news servers had tailed off to an insignificant
level. I would not support going through the same process now.

Mark

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In article

Post by Clive White
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

[]

Post by Clive White
The newsgroup uk.radio.amateur should be removed from the hierarchy as
it has irretrievably descended into a group where trolling, flames and

[]

Post by Clive White
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until January 22nd) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.

[]
Do we really want to endorse the principle that trolls (etc.) can get a
'group deleted by this means?

If so, what provision is in place to prevent them just moving on to the
next 'group once this one has been removed?

(Note: I do not have a solution to the trolling problem.)

[John Hall]

In message

Removing uk.radio.amateur from UK will not deprive anybody of the
opportunity to discuss amateur radio on Usenet but it will deprive the
trolls of their long-term base. It will also remove a direct threat and
nuisance to UK and its users.

But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.* groups?
ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated group, so if
the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at present have
moderated equivalents then it could make the problem worse. You may say
that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is a defeatist attitude,
but it may be the practical one.

[Chronos]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.
This would only get worse if ukra were to be rmgrouped. The very act of
rmgrouping ukra would give these people ammunition to fling at each
other in other groups unfortunate enough to inherit the participants.

A more cynical person would suspect the motive for this proposal,
although I have no doubt that Clive's RFD is nothing but a heads-up
that there is something very wrong in the State of ukra. Nuking it from
orbit, however, is no solution to the problem. I don't think there is a
solution beyond damage limitation.

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Chronos
A more cynical person would suspect the motive for this proposal,

Or would question who "Clive" is a sock of.

[Chronos]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:39 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)

Post by Paul Cummins

Post by Chronos
A more cynical person would suspect the motive for this proposal,

Or would question who "Clive" is a sock of.

For the record, I do not believe Clive White to be a sock puppet of
anyone or the motive for raising the RFD to be anything other than
concern for the reputation of the hierarchy. This RFD was inevitable,
given the conduct of certain people using the group. I simply believe
this solution is counter-productive.

Sorry if that was not clear from my post.

[Rob Morley]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 11:34:16 +0000

Post by Chronos
For the record, I do not believe Clive White to be a sock puppet of
anyone or the motive for raising the RFD to be anything other than
concern for the reputation of the hierarchy. This RFD was inevitable,
given the conduct of certain people using the group.

But it completely misjudges the way that a remove request of an active
group will likely be treated.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Rob Morley
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 11:34:16 +0000

Post by Chronos
For the record, I do not believe Clive White to be a sock puppet of
anyone or the motive for raising the RFD to be anything other than
concern for the reputation of the hierarchy. This RFD was inevitable,
given the conduct of certain people using the group.

But it completely misjudges the way that a remove request of an active
group

It's actively trolled, certainly.

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
It's actively trolled, certainly.

By you and you puppetmaster, amongst others.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Paul Cummins

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
It's actively trolled, certainly.

By you and you puppetmaster, amongst others.

I agree. A lot of us may occasionally engage in ill-tempered argument
but, since Gareth Evans left, Reay and Cole are the only ones actively
trolling the group. (There is of course the irrational spam from West
Scotland in intermittent bursts, but this not trolling whatever else it
is.)

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Paul Cummins

Post by Chronos
A more cynical person would suspect the motive for this proposal,

Or would question who "Clive" is a sock of.

There's a suggestion in ukra that it could be Colin Watson, one of Jim's
Glaswegian friends. CW...

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.

Which "few" and which groups?

Post by Chronos
This would only get worse if ukra were to be rmgrouped. The very act of
rmgrouping ukra would give these people ammunition to fling at each
other in other groups unfortunate enough to inherit the participants.

I don't think so. Those who are happy to post in ukram will take up
lodgings there, those who won't will congregate in fuar. There's a
challenge there in itself insofar as if the fuar set were "followed" by
others and trolled, it'd be obvious who the true troublemakers were. Each
"side" is going to want the "other side" to be regarded as the dirtbags, so
there'd likely be a strong psychological barrier in allowing oneself to be
painted as such.

Post by Chronos
A more cynical person would suspect the motive for this proposal,
although I have no doubt that Clive's RFD is nothing but a heads-up
that there is something very wrong in the State of ukra. Nuking it from
orbit, however, is no solution to the problem.

It's the only way to be sure.

Post by Chronos
I don't think there is a
solution beyond damage limitation.

Behaviours that have taken root over the last decade and a half ain't gonna
change. Removing the cesspit is the only change that can be made.

[Brian Morrison]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 12:22:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Behaviours that have taken root over the last decade and a half ain't
gonna change. Removing the cesspit is the only change that can be
made.

Says the person who continues to add more than most to the unpleasant
content of the 'cesspit' because he appears to be incapable of
controlling himself.

When you've been challenged on this, and contrast has been drawn
between ukram and ukra, you've simply said "I'll do what I like because
I can." Not exactly the moral high ground, but then perhaps you don't
care about that.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 12:22:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Behaviours that have taken root over the last decade and a half ain't
gonna change. Removing the cesspit is the only change that can be
made.

Says the person who continues to add more than most to the unpleasant
content of the 'cesspit' because he appears to be incapable of
controlling himself.

The back-alley ambience of ukra was set in stone a good decade before I
found the group. The group being a cesspit is absolutely nothing to do with
me.

Post by Brian Morrison
When you've been challenged on this, and contrast has been drawn
between ukram and ukra,

You said I was "incapable of controlling" myself but also imply that I am
able to control myself in ukram. Make up your mind.

you've simply said "I'll do what I like because

Post by Brian Morrison
I can." Not exactly the moral high ground, but then perhaps you don't
care about that.

Many people have very clearly said that a person's behaviour in one group
has precisely zero bearing on their behaviour in another group.

[Brian Morrison]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:52:27 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 12:22:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Behaviours that have taken root over the last decade and a half
ain't gonna change. Removing the cesspit is the only change that
can be made.

Says the person who continues to add more than most to the
unpleasant content of the 'cesspit' because he appears to be
incapable of controlling himself.

The back-alley ambience of ukra was set in stone a good decade before
I found the group. The group being a cesspit is absolutely nothing to
do with me.

I beg to differ, you seem to take special delight in making unpleasant
comments from your 'normal' account and a variety of socks.

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
When you've been challenged on this, and contrast has been drawn
between ukram and ukra,

You said I was "incapable of controlling" myself but also imply that
I am able to control myself in ukram. Make up your mind.

I don't need to, if you can't control yourself when posting to ukram
the mods are there to sweep up the mess. Wasn't that exactly what you
wanted for ukram?

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
you've simply said "I'll do what I like because

Post by Brian Morrison
I can." Not exactly the moral high ground, but then perhaps you
don't care about that.

Many people have very clearly said that a person's behaviour in one
group has precisely zero bearing on their behaviour in another group.

If it has no bearing then it can only mean that you're acting as an
agent provocateur.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:52:27 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 12:22:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Behaviours that have taken root over the last decade and a half
ain't gonna change. Removing the cesspit is the only change that
can be made.

Says the person who continues to add more than most to the
unpleasant content of the 'cesspit' because he appears to be
incapable of controlling himself.

The back-alley ambience of ukra was set in stone a good decade before
I found the group. The group being a cesspit is absolutely nothing to
do with me.

I beg to differ, you seem to take special delight in making unpleasant
comments from your 'normal' account and a variety of socks.

Do you have any evidence for that scurrilous comment? If not, the decent
thing would be to retract and apologise. I know you don't have any evidence
as I only ever post with this ID. Will you be man enough to admit that
you're overreaching obscenely?

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
When you've been challenged on this, and contrast has been drawn
between ukram and ukra,

You said I was "incapable of controlling" myself but also imply that
I am able to control myself in ukram. Make up your mind.

I don't need to, if you can't control yourself when posting to ukram
the mods are there to sweep up the mess. Wasn't that exactly what you
wanted for ukram?

Brian, how many ukram rejections have I had, and what were the reasons for
rejection? The answers to those questions will illustrate whether or not I
am able to control myself.

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
you've simply said "I'll do what I like because

Post by Brian Morrison
I can." Not exactly the moral high ground, but then perhaps you
don't care about that.

Many people have very clearly said that a person's behaviour in one
group has precisely zero bearing on their behaviour in another group.

If it has no bearing then it can only mean that you're acting as an
agent provocateur.

I post to ukra in the long-established house style. If you don't like it,
take it up with those who set the tone about 15 years ago. It's all in the
archives if you need a reminder of which of your chums to blame.

[Brian Morrison]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:05:55 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:52:27 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 12:22:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Behaviours that have taken root over the last decade and a half
ain't gonna change. Removing the cesspit is the only change that
can be made.

Says the person who continues to add more than most to the
unpleasant content of the 'cesspit' because he appears to be
incapable of controlling himself.

The back-alley ambience of ukra was set in stone a good decade
before I found the group. The group being a cesspit is absolutely
nothing to do with me.

I beg to differ, you seem to take special delight in making
unpleasant comments from your 'normal' account and a variety of
socks.

Do you have any evidence for that scurrilous comment? If not, the
decent thing would be to retract and apologise. I know you don't have
any evidence as I only ever post with this ID. Will you be man enough
to admit that you're overreaching obscenely?

I've seen plenty of things I wouldn't post that come from the account
you're using here, the others may or not be you but the style is so
similar that I can't be bothered to differentiate and I've never seen
you take issue with what has been said apparently on your behalf.

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
When you've been challenged on this, and contrast has been drawn
between ukram and ukra,

You said I was "incapable of controlling" myself but also imply
that I am able to control myself in ukram. Make up your mind.

I don't need to, if you can't control yourself when posting to ukram
the mods are there to sweep up the mess. Wasn't that exactly what
you wanted for ukram?

Brian, how many ukram rejections have I had, and what were the
reasons for rejection? The answers to those questions will illustrate
whether or not I am able to control myself.

I really don't know, I don't look at the group and I don't know what
you may have had rejected. As you know I reject the whole concept of
moderation because it is hiding exactly the kind of dual standards that
you exhibit in ukra/ukram with your main (or only?) account.

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
you've simply said "I'll do what I like because

Post by Brian Morrison
I can." Not exactly the moral high ground, but then perhaps you
don't care about that.

Many people have very clearly said that a person's behaviour in one
group has precisely zero bearing on their behaviour in another group.

If it has no bearing then it can only mean that you're acting as an
agent provocateur.

I post to ukra in the long-established house style. If you don't like
it, take it up with those who set the tone about 15 years ago. It's
all in the archives if you need a reminder of which of your chums to
blame.

They're not my chums, they really are not.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:05:55 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:52:27 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 12:22:23 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Behaviours that have taken root over the last decade and a half
ain't gonna change. Removing the cesspit is the only change that
can be made.

Says the person who continues to add more than most to the
unpleasant content of the 'cesspit' because he appears to be
incapable of controlling himself.

The back-alley ambience of ukra was set in stone a good decade
before I found the group. The group being a cesspit is absolutely
nothing to do with me.

I beg to differ, you seem to take special delight in making
unpleasant comments from your 'normal' account and a variety of
socks.

Do you have any evidence for that scurrilous comment? If not, the
decent thing would be to retract and apologise. I know you don't have
any evidence as I only ever post with this ID. Will you be man enough
to admit that you're overreaching obscenely?

I've seen plenty of things I wouldn't post that come from the account
you're using here, the others may or not be you but the style is so
similar that I can't be bothered to differentiate

If you have no evidence, the decent thing to do would be to retract and
apologise.

Post by Brian Morrison
and I've never seen
you take issue with what has been said apparently on your behalf.

I've said, many times, that there's no point bellyaching about being
impostered as it only encourages the imposter. Look at the Jerry Stuckle
debacles. If people are too dim to spot the imposter's tells (the posting
email address is the main giveaway) then they're beyond help.

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
When you've been challenged on this, and contrast has been drawn
between ukram and ukra,

You said I was "incapable of controlling" myself but also imply
that I am able to control myself in ukram. Make up your mind.

I don't need to, if you can't control yourself when posting to ukram
the mods are there to sweep up the mess. Wasn't that exactly what
you wanted for ukram?

Brian, how many ukram rejections have I had, and what were the
reasons for rejection? The answers to those questions will illustrate
whether or not I am able to control myself.

I really don't know, I don't look at the group and I don't know what
you may have had rejected. As you know I reject the whole concept of
moderation because it is hiding exactly the kind of dual standards that
you exhibit in ukra/ukram with your main (or only?) account.

You should really get a handle on the facts before you launch your personal
attacks, don't you think?

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
you've simply said "I'll do what I like because

Post by Brian Morrison
I can." Not exactly the moral high ground, but then perhaps you
don't care about that.

Many people have very clearly said that a person's behaviour in one
group has precisely zero bearing on their behaviour in another group.

If it has no bearing then it can only mean that you're acting as an
agent provocateur.

I post to ukra in the long-established house style. If you don't like
it, take it up with those who set the tone about 15 years ago. It's
all in the archives if you need a reminder of which of your chums to
blame.

They're not my chums, they really are not.

Whatever you say.

[Brian Morrison]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:38:40 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Whatever you say.

Never wrong, are you...

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:38:40 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Whatever you say.

Never wrong, are you...

I see you've refused to do the decent thing and retract and apologise for
your wholly unevidenced slurs, Brian.

[Brian Morrison]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 18:17:38 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:38:40 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Whatever you say.

Never wrong, are you...

I see you've refused to do the decent thing and retract and apologise
for your wholly unevidenced slurs, Brian.

You're absolutely correct. I don't think that they're unevidenced, and
your denials do not sit well with my view of things.

I've kept quiet for some time about all this, but the 'coincidence' of
an RFD from someone unknown to remove ukra together with your obvious
psychological need to win at everything makes me more than happy to
post what I consider to be a fair description of activities that you
appear to approve of if not actually author.

Shit sticks, as you no doubt have noticed.

[Spike]

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 18:17:38 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
I see you've refused to do the decent thing and retract and apologise
for your wholly unevidenced slurs, Brian.

You're absolutely correct. I don't think that they're unevidenced, and
your denials do not sit well with my view of things.
I've kept quiet for some time about all this, but the 'coincidence' of
an RFD from someone unknown to remove ukra together with your obvious
psychological need to win at everything makes me more than happy to
post what I consider to be a fair description of activities that you
appear to approve of if not actually author.
Shit sticks, as you no doubt have noticed.

Well said, Brian.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 18:17:38 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:38:40 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Whatever you say.

Never wrong, are you...

I see you've refused to do the decent thing and retract and apologise
for your wholly unevidenced slurs, Brian.

You're absolutely correct. I don't think that they're unevidenced,

Without evidence, they are wholly unevidenced. You're just throwing
baseless slurs and accusations around, Brian. Do the decent thing and
retract and apologise.

Post by Brian Morrison
and
your denials do not sit well with my view of things.

That's your problem.

Post by Brian Morrison
I've kept quiet for some time about all this, but the 'coincidence' of
an RFD from someone unknown to remove ukra together with your obvious
psychological need to win at everything makes me more than happy to
post what I consider to be a fair description of activities that you
appear to approve of if not actually author.
Shit sticks, as you no doubt have noticed.

You seem very angry, Brian.

[Brian Morrison]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 11:09:53 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
You seem very angry, Brian.

You're reading the runes wrongly old boy...

[Brian Reay]

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 18:17:38 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:38:40 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Whatever you say.

Never wrong, are you...

I see you've refused to do the decent thing and retract and apologise
for your wholly unevidenced slurs, Brian.

You're absolutely correct. I don't think that they're unevidenced,

Without evidence, they are wholly unevidenced. You're just throwing
baseless slurs and accusations around, Brian. Do the decent thing and
retract and apologise.

Post by Brian Morrison
and
your denials do not sit well with my view of things.

That's your problem.

Post by Brian Morrison
I've kept quiet for some time about all this, but the 'coincidence' of
an RFD from someone unknown to remove ukra together with your obvious
psychological need to win at everything makes me more than happy to
post what I consider to be a fair description of activities that you
appear to approve of if not actually author.
Shit sticks, as you no doubt have noticed.

You seem very angry, Brian.

He is just confused.

That is the problem with these pseudo-liberals, they can't think things
through.

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Brian Morrison
You're absolutely correct. I don't think that they're

unevidenced,
Without evidence, they are wholly unevidenced. You're just throwing
baseless slurs and accusations around, Brian. Do the decent thing
and retract and apologise.

Maybe Brian Morrison can apologise to you when Brian Reay apologises to
me for his lies, innuendo and stalking, which your own postings have been
shown to condone.

This is likely to happen approximately three minutes before the Heat
Death of the Universe.

[Butt-hurt-Burt]

Post by Brian Morrison
I've kept quiet for some time about all this, but the 'coincidence' of
an RFD from someone unknown to remove ukra together with your obvious
psychological need to win at everything makes me more than happy to post
what I consider to be a fair description of activities that you appear
to approve of if not actually author.
Shit sticks, as you no doubt have noticed.

I think it's Cummins.


Vote Paul! Vote Uraexit!

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Butt-hurt-Burt

Post by Brian Morrison
I've kept quiet for some time about all this, but the 'coincidence' of
an RFD from someone unknown to remove ukra together with your obvious
psychological need to win at everything makes me more than happy to post
what I consider to be a fair description of activities that you appear
to approve of if not actually author.
Shit sticks, as you no doubt have noticed.

I think it's Cummins.

Cummins & Watson... CW... Clive White... The plot thickens!

Post by Butt-hurt-Burt
Vote Paul! Vote Uraexit!

Vote Paul!

[Spike]

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
If it has no bearing then it can only mean that you're acting as an
agent provocateur.

I post to ukra in the long-established house style. If you don't like
it, take it up with those who set the tone about 15 years ago. It's
all in the archives if you need a reminder of which of your chums to
blame.

They're not my chums, they really are not.

Prole needs to explain why, on his first day on the group, he was
abusive to Jimbo - who had done nothing to deserve such treatment -
because it all got rapidly worse from that singular point of the
space-time continuum. Then came the RFDs, where he was quickly labelled
as a 'nekulturniy fuckwit' and worse. He brought it all on himself and
has since tried to shift the blame onto UKRA. Unfortunately "It's All In
The Archives", as he liked to remind people so frequently before the
tables were turned on him.

[Butt-hurt-Burt]

Post by Spike

Post by Brian Morrison

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Brian Morrison
If it has no bearing then it can only mean that you're acting as an
agent provocateur.

I post to ukra in the long-established house style. If you don't like
it, take it up with those who set the tone about 15 years ago. It's
all in the archives if you need a reminder of which of your chums to
blame.

They're not my chums, they really are not.

Prole needs to explain why, on his first day on the group, he was
abusive to Jimbo - who had done nothing to deserve such treatment -
because it all got rapidly worse from that singular point of the
space-time continuum. Then came the RFDs, where he was quickly labelled
as a 'nekulturniy fuckwit' and worse. He brought it all on himself and
has since tried to shift the blame onto UKRA. Unfortunately "It's All In
The Archives", as he liked to remind people so frequently before the
tables were turned on him.

It's a proper mystery why he took against you, Burt. Some early-years
psychological trauma, I guess.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.

Which "few" and which groups?

Mainly you, and mainly unn.management, but also the other unnm and unnc
on occasion.

For a year you cross-posted Spike's uram statistics to a management
group every week.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.

Which "few" and which groups?

Mainly you, and mainly unn.management, but also the other unnm and unnc
on occasion.
For a year you cross-posted Spike's uram statistics to a management
group every week.

And I "followed" nobody in doing so. Actually, everybody else followed me!

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.

Which "few" and which groups?

Mainly you, and mainly unn.management, but also the other unnm and unnc
on occasion.
For a year you cross-posted Spike's uram statistics to a management
group every week.

And I "followed" nobody in doing so. Actually, everybody else followed me!

That must have been a total and unexpected surprise to you! After all
you couldn't have been trolling to bring ukra users into disrepute among
the users of the management groups, could you?

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.

Which "few" and which groups?

Mainly you, and mainly unn.management, but also the other unnm and unnc
on occasion.
For a year you cross-posted Spike's uram statistics to a management
group every week.

And I "followed" nobody in doing so. Actually, everybody else followed me!

That must have been a total and unexpected surprise to you! After all
you couldn't have been trolling to bring ukra users into disrepute among
the users of the management groups, could you?

No, Roger. I was placing in the wider public record evidence of Burt's
deranged anti-ukram campaign. Je ne regrette rien.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.

Which "few" and which groups?

Mainly you, and mainly unn.management, but also the other unnm and unnc
on occasion.
For a year you cross-posted Spike's uram statistics to a management
group every week.

And I "followed" nobody in doing so. Actually, everybody else followed me!

That must have been a total and unexpected surprise to you! After all
you couldn't have been trolling to bring ukra users into disrepute among
the users of the management groups, could you?

No, Roger. I was placing in the wider public record evidence of Burt's
deranged anti-ukram campaign. Je ne regrette rien.

What a strange delusion it is that because this is of interest to you it
would be of any interest whatsoever to the "wider public". And to what
end do you want to "record" it? Do you have ambitions for somehow
attacking Spike with this damning information in the future? Do you
really want to emulate those whose life is absorbed with collecting
"evidence" against their enemies so they can quote it in twenty years'
time? Life's too short for his nonsense!

[Spike]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
No, Roger. I was placing in the wider public record evidence of Burt's
deranged anti-ukram campaign. Je ne regrette rien.

What a strange delusion it is that because this is of interest to you it
would be of any interest whatsoever to the "wider public". And to what
end do you want to "record" it? Do you have ambitions for somehow
attacking Spike with this damning information in the future? Do you
really want to emulate those whose life is absorbed with collecting
"evidence" against their enemies so they can quote it in twenty years'
time? Life's too short for his nonsense!

Prole never could grasp that telling people how low things have sunk
just could galvanise them into doing better. A last I seem to have made
that breakthrough and thus saving UKRAM, and he's still complaining!
Funny boy, isn't he. Never knows whether he's coming or going.

[Chronos]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 22:28:30 +0000

Post by Roger Hayter
Life's too short for his nonsense!

Hear, hear! You can't sweeten life with bitterness.

[Brian Reay]

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 22:28:30 +0000

Post by Roger Hayter
Life's too short for his nonsense!

Hear, hear! You can't sweeten life with bitterness.

I see neither of you have any sense of honesty.

Both of you have been involved in petty campaigns, Matt in particular
against newcomers to amateur radio, Roger against anyone who doesn't
support his confused views.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian Reay

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 22:28:30 +0000

Post by Roger Hayter
Life's too short for his nonsense!

Hear, hear! You can't sweeten life with bitterness.

I see neither of you have any sense of honesty.
Both of you have been involved in petty campaigns, Matt in particular
against newcomers to amateur radio, Roger against anyone who doesn't
support his confused views.

It is a fact that Matt spent a significant amount of time trolling in ukra,
mostly before my time but it's all in the archives. Funny how Brian
Morrison isn't launching personal attacks against him, eh?

[Roger Hayter]

snip

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
No, Roger. I was placing in the wider public record evidence of Burt's
deranged anti-ukram campaign. Je ne regrette rien.

What a strange delusion it is that because this is of interest to you it
would be of any interest whatsoever to the "wider public". And to what
end do you want to "record" it? Do you have ambitions for somehow
attacking Spike with this damning information in the future? Do you
really want to emulate those whose life is absorbed with collecting
"evidence" against their enemies so they can quote it in twenty years'
time? Life's too short for his nonsense!

I actually meant "this nonsense" - Freudian slip perhaps.

[Chronos]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 00:44:33 +0000

Post by Roger Hayter
I actually meant "this nonsense" - Freudian slip perhaps.

Oddly enough, that's how I read it. I didn't even notice the typo. The
mind is a fascinating thing.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.

Which "few" and which groups?

Mainly you, and mainly unn.management, but also the other unnm and unnc
on occasion.
For a year you cross-posted Spike's uram statistics to a management
group every week.

And I "followed" nobody in doing so. Actually, everybody else followed me!

That must have been a total and unexpected surprise to you! After all
you couldn't have been trolling to bring ukra users into disrepute among
the users of the management groups, could you?

No, Roger. I was placing in the wider public record evidence of Burt's
deranged anti-ukram campaign. Je ne regrette rien.

What a strange delusion it is that because this is of interest to you it
would be of any interest whatsoever to the "wider public". And to what
end do you want to "record" it? Do you have ambitions for somehow
attacking Spike with this damning information in the future? Do you
really want to emulate those whose life is absorbed with collecting
"evidence" against their enemies so they can quote it in twenty years'
time? Life's too short for his nonsense!

The intended, and achieved, effect was to highlight Burt's deranged
anti-ukram campaign.

[Kerr Mudd-John]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 21:22:07 -0000, Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Chronos
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:55:53 +0000

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.*
groups? ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated
group, so if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at
present have moderated equivalents then it could make the problem
worse. You may say that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is
a defeatist attitude, but it may be the practical one.

The feuding few already follow their "marks" into unrelated groups.

Which "few" and which groups?

Mainly you, and mainly unn.management, but also the other unnm and unnc
on occasion.
For a year you cross-posted Spike's uram statistics to a management
group every week.

And I "followed" nobody in doing so. Actually, everybody else followed me!

That must have been a total and unexpected surprise to you! After all
you couldn't have been trolling to bring ukra users into disrepute among
the users of the management groups, could you?

No, Roger. I was placing in the wider public record evidence of Burt's
deranged anti-ukram campaign. Je ne regrette rien.

Clearly (but maybe not to you) you are part of the problem. But you thrive
on the controversy whilst pretending innocence. If it looks like a troll
and walks like a troll...

[mm0fmf]

Post by Kerr Mudd-John
If it looks like
a troll and walks like a troll...

then it's spike?

[Bi Song]

Stephen Thomas Cole stirred electrons into action to say ...

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole

Post by Roger Hayter

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
And I "followed" nobody in doing so. Actually, everybody else followed me!

That must have been a total and unexpected surprise to you! After all
you couldn't have been trolling to bring ukra users into disrepute among
the users of the management groups, could you?

No, Roger. I was placing in the wider public record evidence of Burt's
deranged anti-ukram campaign. Je ne regrette rien.

Round objects, the crossposts were usually accompanied by a snide
comment about Spike from you. You were relying on the crosspost going
unnoticed.

Anyway, it didn't need a "wider public record" as "it's all in the
archives" as you are wont to say ad nauseum.

[Paul Cummins]

Post by Bi Song
Round objects, the crossposts were usually accompanied by a snide
comment about Spike from you.

Don't forget, Brian Reay has claimed that anyone supporting me, Spike etc
is "scum"

[Ian Jackson]

Post by John Hall
But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.* groups?
ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated group, so
if the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at present have
moderated equivalents then it could make the problem worse. You may say
that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is a defeatist
attitude, but it may be the practical one.

alt.steve seems free for such purposes (available on nttp.aioe.org) - or
free.uk.amateur-radio (also available on ES, NIN and
freenews.netfront.net)

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian Howie
In message

Removing uk.radio.amateur from UK will not deprive anybody of the
opportunity to discuss amateur radio on Usenet but it will deprive the
trolls of their long-term base. It will also remove a direct threat and
nuisance to UK and its users.

But will the trolls give up on uk.* if uk.radio.amateur is removed?

Probably not, but they'll be dispersed and fractured rather than
concentrated in interminable warfare in one group. That dispersal will
dilute The Problem.

Post by Brian Howie
Aren't they much more likely to move to one or more other uk.* groups?

Seeing as much of the broad enmity is focussed on the shared interest of
amateur radio, I suggest that's unlikely.

Post by Brian Howie
ATM people can avoid uk.radio.amateur and use the moderated group, so if
the trolls move to a group or group(s) that don't at present have
moderated equivalents then it could make the problem worse. You may say
that to retain uk.radio.amateur for that reason is a defeatist attitude,
but it may be the practical one.

At least two other active groups have been nuked in uk.* history, if it was
justified to remove them to solve trolling problems then it's justified for
ukra.

[Spike]

Post by Clive White
The newsgroup uk.radio.amateur should be removed from the hierarchy as
it has irretrievably descended into a group where trolling, flames and
personal attacks make up the vast majority

[1] If a small group of posters, already active on other groups, ceased
posting there, it is guaranteed that 'trolling, flames and personal
attacks' would cease there.

Post by Clive White
(regularly to the point of 100%) of posted content.

[2] 'Regularly' needs to be defined, otherwise this is a statement with
no merit.

Post by Clive White
The trolling and attacks routinely spill over
from uk.radio.amateur into other newsgroups in the UK hierarchy and
Big 8, ruining innocent bystanders enjoyment of usenet.

[3] 'Spill-over' is due to the multiple addressing of messages from the
Big 8. These sometimes include rec.radio.amateur.radio, a very low
traffic group for original postings - the last being at the beginning of
December 2016, or over a month ago - as are most of the groups under
rec.radio umbrella. Therefore there are no 'bystanders' that can have
their 'enjoyment' 'ruined' - they went away a long time ago for reasons
totally unconnected with UKRA.

Post by Clive White
There is no realistic expectation that the trolls' behaviour will change.

[4] Leopards can't change their spots, but they can go elsewhere,
whether before or after any group removal. This is a real risk, as
trolls troll because they can, the group-de-jour being immaterial to
their psychological imperatives. Leave them on UKRA, its denizens are
tough-minded and can contain the trolls, and are willing to do this to
save UK Usenet from this particular group.

Post by Clive White
The group has been this way for many years already. The impact on the UK
hierarchy management newsgroups has been particularly bad with them
often rendered unusable for days or weeks at a time. This is arguably
a direct threat to the credibility and future of the hierarchy.

[5] That is a management issue, not a UKRA issue. They are robust enough
to look after themselves, as they have shown in the past, including
personal attacks on individuals.

Post by Clive White
There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated. Any users of uk.radio.amateur who wish to
discuss amateur radio on UK are able to do so there. There are also
many other unmoderated amateur radio newsgroups in other hierarchies,
including free.uk.amateur-radio. > Removing uk.radio.amateur from UK
will not deprive anybody of the opportunity to discuss amateur radio
on Usenet but it will deprive the trolls of their long-term base. It
will also remove a direct threat and nuisance to UK and its users.

[6] This is another argument in favour of keeping UKRA as it is.

[7] Conclusion: This proposal needs much work to bring the underpinning
claims somewhat nearer to the perceived actualité and therefore add
apparent verisimilitude to it. It does nothing to deal with trolling
behaviour except in only one place. It does not address the problem of
the trolls moving on to the next target group. It also needs to address
the issue of throwing the baby out with the bath-water. What happens in
the empty wastelands of the Big 8 radio groups is of no consequence to
this proposal.

[Spike]

Post by Spike
[5] That is a management issue, not a UKRA issue. They are robust enough
to look after themselves, as they have shown in the past, including
personal attacks on individuals.

That could be more clearly expressed as

[5] That is a management issue, not a UKRA issue. They are robust enough
to look after themselves, as they have shown in the past when suffering
personal attacks on Committee individuals.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Spike

Post by Clive White
The group has been this way for many years already. The impact on the UK
hierarchy management newsgroups has been particularly bad with them
often rendered unusable for days or weeks at a time. This is arguably
a direct threat to the credibility and future of the hierarchy.

[5] That is a management issue, not a UKRA issue. They are robust enough
to look after themselves, as they have shown in the past, including
personal attacks on individuals.

With respect, Burt, an existential threat to the hierarchy is very much a
ukra issue. Indeed, it's an issue that equally impacts every single uk.*
group.

[Brian]

On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 20:14:01 +0000, Clive White

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

<snip>

I oppose this and would vote against if the matter proceeded to a CFV.

There continues to be on-topic traffic in the group. The number of
long-term abusers is fairly small and, however prodigious their
output, it is easily removed by the judicious use of a kill-file.

The proponent appears to believe that removal of uk.r.a. would
diminish the volume of allegedly off-topic or otherwise abusive
postings by a small number of posters who also post in uk.r.a. In my
opinion, this belief is mistaken. If a poster's activities are
thought to be abusive, the matter should be referred to the relevant
ISP for an opinion as to whether the individual is using her/his
account in accordance with the associated AUPs.

Remove .2001 to reply by email. I apologise for the inconvenience.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 20:14:01 +0000, Clive White

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

<snip>
I oppose this and would vote against if the matter proceeded to a CFV.
There continues to be on-topic traffic in the group.

A vanishingly small amount, and always derailed by trolling.

The number of

Post by Brian
long-term abusers is fairly small and, however prodigious their
output, it is easily removed by the judicious use of a kill-file.

If you killfiled every poster who abused ukra then you'd have very little
content to read, and most of that would contain quoted abuse. The majority
of surviving posters get stuck in and get dirty, some more so than others,
for sure, but there's very few with a clear conscience.

[Spike]

Post by Brian
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 20:14:01 +0000, Clive White

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

<snip>
I oppose this and would vote against if the matter proceeded to a CFV.
There continues to be on-topic traffic in the group. The number of
long-term abusers is fairly small and, however prodigious their
output, it is easily removed by the judicious use of a kill-file.
The proponent appears to believe that removal of uk.r.a. would
diminish the volume of allegedly off-topic or otherwise abusive
postings by a small number of posters who also post in uk.r.a. In my
opinion, this belief is mistaken. If a poster's activities are
thought to be abusive, the matter should be referred to the relevant
ISP for an opinion as to whether the individual is using her/his
account in accordance with the associated AUPs.
Remove .2001 to reply by email. I apologise for the inconvenience.

There has been a suggestion posted in UKRA by someone who was initially
approached to offer advice on the group-removal issue.

The history, briefly, is that a few years ago a group of Radio Amateurs
thought to be located in and around Glasgow appeared on the group, the
only interactions being between them and not the rest of the group; one
could be forgiven for assuming from the nature of the postings (frequent
references to sex with dogs, for example) that some issues have come to
the fore. Their influx was collectively referred to by the rest of UKRA
as 'the Glasgow crapflood'. They were quickly kill-filed by those who
could do so. As these messages were only posted between themselves there
was no re-quoting of their material, and for all practical purposes they
disappeared from sight.

It has now been suggested that one of this group is behind this RFD
ostensibly in order to end the messages from the rest of 'the Glasgow
crapflood'.

This may not be thought to be an appropriate way forward, as it would
not stop the transfer of the 'flood' to another group and it would also
remove a thriving, viable group of long standing.

There is more information, including links to newspaper reports, in the
thread 'load of shite' on UKRA.

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Spike

Post by Brian
On Wed, 11 Jan 2017 20:14:01 +0000, Clive White

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

<snip>
I oppose this and would vote against if the matter proceeded to a CFV.
There continues to be on-topic traffic in the group. The number of
long-term abusers is fairly small and, however prodigious their
output, it is easily removed by the judicious use of a kill-file.
The proponent appears to believe that removal of uk.r.a. would
diminish the volume of allegedly off-topic or otherwise abusive
postings by a small number of posters who also post in uk.r.a. In my
opinion, this belief is mistaken. If a poster's activities are
thought to be abusive, the matter should be referred to the relevant
ISP for an opinion as to whether the individual is using her/his
account in accordance with the associated AUPs.
Remove .2001 to reply by email. I apologise for the inconvenience.

There has been a suggestion posted in UKRA by someone who was initially
approached to offer advice on the group-removal issue.
The history, briefly, is that a few years ago a group of Radio Amateurs
thought to be located in and around Glasgow appeared on the group, the
only interactions being between them and not the rest of the group; one
could be forgiven for assuming from the nature of the postings (frequent
references to sex with dogs, for example) that some issues have come to
the fore. Their influx was collectively referred to by the rest of UKRA
as 'the Glasgow crapflood'. They were quickly kill-filed by those who
could do so. As these messages were only posted between themselves there
was no re-quoting of their material, and for all practical purposes they
disappeared from sight.
It has now been suggested that one of this group is behind this RFD
ostensibly in order to end the messages from the rest of 'the Glasgow
crapflood'.
This may not be thought to be an appropriate way forward, as it would
not stop the transfer of the 'flood' to another group and it would also
remove a thriving, viable group of long standing.
There is more information, including links to newspaper reports, in the
thread 'load of shite' on UKRA.

I too was kinda leaning towards being convinced by Brian Howie's suggestion
as to the source of the RFD, but there are issues with this line of
enquiry. Primarily, it's written in perfectly decent English, a skill never
before demonstrated by any of the Glaswegian crew, who all appear to be
close to illiterate. Additionally, the RFD makes quite fairly detailed
reference to the management of the hierarchy and the potential implications
for hierarchy stability of an out-of-control newsgroup. I've never seen any
of the Glaswegians demonstrate any awareness of any aspect of uk.* outside
ukra. So, I'm deeply sceptical. In any case, taken at face value, the RFD
makes good points and seems a natural response from an exasperated uk.*
denizen. I hope it is taken to a vote so that the community can lay their
judgement on the cesspit.

[Brian Howie]

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
I too was kinda leaning towards being convinced by Brian Howie's suggestion
as to the source of the RFD, but there are issues with this line of
enquiry. Primarily, it's written in perfectly decent English, a skill never
before demonstrated by any of the Glaswegian crew, who all appear to be
close to illiterate. Additionally, the RFD makes quite fairly detailed
reference to the management of the hierarchy and the potential implications
for hierarchy stability of an out-of-control newsgroup. I've never seen any
of the Glaswegians demonstrate any awareness of any aspect of uk.* outside
ukra. So, I'm deeply sceptical. In any case, taken at face value, the RFD
makes good points and seems a natural response from an exasperated uk.*
denizen. I hope it is taken to a vote so that the community can lay their
judgement on the cesspit.

I don't think Colin W is the author. I've had two phone calls from him ,
one in mid December and one two weeks ago and tried to explain how
USNET worked and how no-one actually ran it. No mention to him of RFDs
etc.

I suggested taking transcripts to the authorities or complaining to the
ISPs. The protagonists and respondents don't obscure the forensic
evidence in the headers.

I did look around and found the same sort of history as Jim. I also
kill file anything related to the Glasgow crap-flood but disabled it to
to have a look

It is possible I'm not the only one he phoned an he's found someone who
is capable, but all this may be a coincidence.

I find it all a bit weird and disturbing.

Brian

[Stephen Thomas Cole]

Post by Brian Howie

Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
I too was kinda leaning towards being convinced by Brian Howie's suggestion
as to the source of the RFD, but there are issues with this line of
enquiry. Primarily, it's written in perfectly decent English, a skill never
before demonstrated by any of the Glaswegian crew, who all appear to be
close to illiterate. Additionally, the RFD makes quite fairly detailed
reference to the management of the hierarchy and the potential implications
for hierarchy stability of an out-of-control newsgroup. I've never seen any
of the Glaswegians demonstrate any awareness of any aspect of uk.* outside
ukra. So, I'm deeply sceptical. In any case, taken at face value, the RFD
makes good points and seems a natural response from an exasperated uk.*
denizen. I hope it is taken to a vote so that the community can lay their
judgement on the cesspit.

I don't think Colin W is the author. I've had two phone calls from him ,
one in mid December and one two weeks ago and tried to explain how
USNET worked and how no-one actually ran it. No mention to him of RFDs
etc.
I suggested taking transcripts to the authorities or complaining to the
ISPs. The protagonists and respondents don't obscure the forensic
evidence in the headers.
I did look around and found the same sort of history as Jim. I also
kill file anything related to the Glasgow crap-flood but disabled it to
to have a look
It is possible I'm not the only one he phoned an he's found someone who
is capable, but all this may be a coincidence.
I find it all a bit weird and disturbing.

Yup. There's nowt so weird as ukra.

[A. non Eyemouse]

Post by Clive White
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur
*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.
RATIONALE: uk.radio.amateur
The newsgroup uk.radio.amateur should be removed from the hierarchy as
it has irretrievably descended into a group where trolling, flames and
personal attacks make up the vast majority (regularly to the point of
100%) of posted content. The trolling and attacks routinely spill over
from uk.radio.amateur into other newsgroups in the UK hierarchy and
Big 8, ruining innocent bystanders enjoyment of usenet. There is no
realistic expectation that the trolls' behaviour will change. The
group has been this way for many years already. The impact on the UK
hierarchy management newsgroups has been particularly bad with them
often rendered unusable for days or weeks at a time. This is arguably
a direct threat to the credibility and future of the hierarchy.
There now exists a second amateur radio group in UK,
uk.radio.amateur.moderated. Any users of uk.radio.amateur who wish to
discuss amateur radio on UK are able to do so there. There are also
many other unmoderated amateur radio newsgroups in other hierarchies,
including free.uk.amateur-radio. Removing uk.radio.amateur from UK
will not deprive anybody of the opportunity to discuss amateur radio
on Usenet but it will deprive the trolls of their long-term base. It
will also remove a direct threat and nuisance to UK and its users.
uk.radio.amateur
This group is intended to provide a forum for discussion of amateur
radio in the UK.
END CHARTER
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until January 22nd) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method. Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce
and is available from http://www.usenet.org.uk/guidelines.html (the UK
Usenet website). Please refer to this document if you have any questions
about the process.
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.config
uk.radio.amateur
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Active group. If it makes it to a CFV I will vote against.

[Butt-hurt-Burt]

Post by A. non Eyemouse

Post by Clive White
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
delete newsgroup uk.radio.amateur

Active group. If it makes it to a CFV I will vote against.

Absolute shit-hole of a group. If it makes it to a CFV I will vote in
favour.